14:00:10 <BigBoyToddy> Is anyone from FORTH Inc. going to show?
14:00:10 --- join: bernd (bernd@dial022.mucweb.de) joined #forth
14:00:17 <kc5tja> re Bernd
14:00:18 <jim> at the same time, you showed me how to bring the asm part of a kernel up
14:00:19 <MrReach> oh, cool! Tanksley is here!
14:00:24 <futhin> wow, 3 ppl joining within a minute
14:00:28 <MrReach> *BIG* forth names
14:00:29 <futhin> are we excited? :D
14:00:30 <I440r> man i MIGHT have to remove my joke channel limit heh
14:00:34 <kc5tja> wtanksle is my evil cohort in writing Dolphin...
14:00:34 <tcn> hehe
14:00:40 <jim> JD was there... JJ probably too
14:00:44 <wtanksley> Wait, how'd I get to be a BIG Forth name?
14:00:46 <wtanksley> :-)
14:00:48 <MrReach> the #Figuk irc meeting just ended, I gather
14:00:49 <kc5tja> But I know something about Dolphin that wtanksle doesn't know...
14:00:57 <wtanksley> It's not left-handed!
14:00:58 <kc5tja> Dolphin will be written in Forth.  ;D
14:01:02 <I440r> wtanksley all ya gotta do is write cluefull code - :)
14:01:04 <wtanksley> You told me that!
14:01:12 <kc5tja> I did?  When?!
14:01:12 --- join: chipChuck (chipChuck@user-2ivfls5.dialup.mindspring.com) joined #forth
14:01:16 <rob_ert> Hi!
14:01:18 <I440r> chipchuck!
14:01:19 <BigBoyToddy> hello
14:01:21 --- mode: futhin set +o chipChuck
14:01:22 <goshawk`> greetings, Mr. Moore!
14:01:23 <wtanksley> Hi, Chuck!
14:01:24 <Quartus> Hi Mr. Moore!
14:01:28 <klooie> yay, hey mister Moore. :)
14:01:33 <kc5tja> re chipchuck 
14:01:35 <chipChuck> Howdy
14:01:36 --- mode: I440r set +m
14:01:39 <I440r> ok hang on guys
14:01:43 <MrReach> ha! greets, MrMoore!
14:01:47 <I440r> we dont want to flood the place
14:01:57 <I440r> will set -m presently
14:02:32 <I440r> ok ... how do we proceed with this
14:02:38 <futhin> Chuck, we're not quite sure how to proceed with this :)
14:02:41 <futhin> first time doing this
14:02:43 <I440r> :)
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14:02:55 <MrReach> greets, thefox
14:03:02 <I440r> im guessing thefox is jeff fox ?
14:03:04 <MrReach> set the channel +m ...
14:03:06 --- mode: futhin set +o thefox
14:03:13 <thefox> yes
14:03:17 <MrReach> then have people /msg you questions
14:03:17 --- join: Al1 (Al@210-55-144-66.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
14:03:19 <chipChuck> Good crowd
14:03:31 <futhin> i have collected a number of questions
14:03:34 <I440r> thats what i thunked - ok i think i can remove the +m - but please dont everyone talk at once :)
14:03:43 <MrReach> then, if the question is good, give them +v so that they can converse with chucks
14:03:43 <futhin> i'm not sure if we should do a standard interview.. or a free for all
14:03:47 <I440r> it will evaporate once you leve chipchuck :)
14:03:47 <futhin> what do you think chuck?
14:03:48 <I440r> doh!@
14:03:56 --- mode: I440r set -m
14:04:07 --- mode: futhin set +vvv Al1 AlephNull bernd
14:04:08 <chipChuck> Just ask questions
14:04:21 <Fare> thefox: what does aikido teaches you about forth, and conversely?
14:04:25 <chipChuck> Or express opinions
14:04:29 <MrReach> chipChuck: What would a publication Statndard look like?
14:04:32 <goshawk`> greetings, Mr. Fox, and welcome to #forth.
14:04:46 <I440r> yes. greeting to ALL of you
14:04:46 <Quartus> He should be welcoming us to #forth. :)
14:04:51 --- join: juu (ammu@baana-62-165-190-249.phnet.fi) joined #forth
14:05:04 <chipChuck> Publication standard can be transcribed into various dialects
14:05:06 <I440r> even if you DO leave when chipchuck leaves it is a great pleasure to see you all here
14:05:21 --- join: witten (~witten@adsl-gte-la-216-86-210-121.mminternet.com) joined #forth
14:05:29 <chipChuck> Lowest common denominator
14:05:43 <chipChuck> But imprecise
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14:06:11 <jim> chipChuck/thefox: I know you're both involved in creating chips, and have probably gone thru several versions of forth chips... could you give us an idea of where you are in terms of stability and production?
14:06:28 --- join: oink (~ziga@owl.cuckoos.net) joined #forth
14:06:49 <chipChuck> None in production; design stable
14:06:52 --- mode: futhin set +m
14:07:01 <futhin> ok, here's the plan i'm thinking
14:07:05 <futhin> let's do this formally for a bit
14:07:06 --- join: quartz (~k@a161161.upc-a.chello.nl) joined #forth
14:07:11 <futhin> then we'll -m and do it informally
14:07:18 <futhin> i have 10 stock questions for chuck
14:07:23 <futhin> gathered from people beforehand
14:07:31 --- join: miket2 (unknown@62.60.64.13) joined #forth
14:07:36 <thefox> I haven't done a prototype run since 98 and the only MISC prouction run was MuP21 in 1994 by Dr. Ting.
14:07:42 --- quit: Al1 (Client Quit)
14:07:58 --- part: miket2 left #forth
14:08:03 --- topic: set to 'Wveryone will have a chance to talk with Mr Chuck Moore - please be patient with the +m' by I440r
14:08:07 --- join: Al1 (Al@210-55-144-66.dialup.xtra.co.nz) joined #forth
14:08:16 <MrReach> futhin: who should new questions be /msg'd to?
14:08:25 <futhin> me or other operators..
14:08:41 <I440r> that poses a slight "operators get flooded" problem heh
14:08:45 <MrReach> it needs to be *ONE* op ... the one chosen to give voices
14:08:56 --- join: John_Peters (JP@ppp-206-170-3-235.okld03.pacbell.net) joined #forth
14:09:05 <futhin> fine, everybody messages questions to me heh
14:09:08 --- join: jeffp (~jeff@jrpenn.demon.co.uk) joined #forth
14:09:15 <futhin> but i already have a handful
14:09:17 <futhin> *goshawk`: how did you come to the conclusion that Forth was too complex, and that sourceless programming was your next move?
14:09:27 <I440r> i thinki should remove my joke channel limit of 83 lol
14:09:29 <futhin> that's the first question.. lets proceed from here for now heh :)
14:09:43 <I440r> argh i guess i cant without further messing :P
14:09:53 <futhin> shh i440r :P
14:10:03 <chipChuck> Maybe by reading the Forth Standard
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14:10:34 <futhin> <AlephNull> Mr. Moore and/or Mr. Fox: Have you ever considered writing a book on forth or computing?
14:10:37 <chipChuck> There are Megaforths that try to do everything
14:10:48 <chipChuck> Just like Windows or Unix
14:10:51 <I440r> like c
14:10:58 --- topic: set to 'Everyone will have a chance to talk with Mr Chuck Moore - please be patient with the +m, /msg questions for Futhin' by MrReach
14:11:11 --- topic: set to 'Everyone will have a chance to talk with Mr Chuck Moore - please be patient with the +m, /msg questions to Futhin' by MrReach
14:11:26 <futhin> sorry chipchuck, i didn't know you were finished with the first question ..
14:11:30 <chipChuck> But sourceless code is a dead end. Self-limiting
14:11:54 <futhin> just let me know when you are ready for the next question
14:11:59 <futhin> from now on
14:12:00 <thefox> Yes, I plan to write at least a couple of books.
14:12:00 <chipChuck> I'll say over
14:12:03 <futhin> ok
14:12:37 <chipChuck> colorForth seeks the absolute minimum of overhead.
14:12:55 --- join: pavlovskii (pavlovskii@modem-1257.arbok.dialup.pol.co.uk) joined #forth
14:13:00 <chipChuck> Published colorForth is overly complex. colorForth in colorForth will be simple.
14:13:06 <chipChuck> over
14:13:27 <chipChuck> I lack the patience to write a book. I'll let Jeff
14:13:36 <chipChuck> over
14:14:09 <futhin> futhin: what do you think about FOR NEXT?  is FOR NEXT more efficient & simple?  what about the conflict with the NEXT word used in the inner interpreter in some forths?
14:14:36 <futhin> um
14:14:41 <futhin> if the question is redundant
14:14:55 <futhin> just say so and maybe point to where we can find the answers
14:14:58 <chipChuck> FOR NEXT is much simpler than DO LOOP, especially for hardware implementation.
14:15:10 <MrReach> amen
14:15:39 <chipChuck> Implementation words such as the other NEXT should be invisible
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14:16:26 <chipChuck> FOR NEXT runs thru loops backwards. Which is perfectly fine, once you're used to it
14:16:29 <chipChuck> over
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14:16:43 <futhin> <wtanksley> Chuck, have you looked at backtracking?  Have you played games like that with the return stack?
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14:17:13 <chipChuck> Yes, return stack is a valuable tool
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14:17:43 <chipChuck> One use I made of it was to implement infix notation with precedence operators
14:17:49 <thefox> Except that you can't count on it being a return stack in ANS...
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14:18:04 <I440r> strike one against ans
14:18:17 <chipChuck> On the other hand, I don't like CATCH THROW
14:18:39 <chipChuck> Errors should be impossible. Or resolved immediately
14:19:13 <chipChuck> over
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14:19:20 <futhin>  <fare> chipChuck: were you or are you aware of the POP-2 language, that in the late 1960s introduced a double-stack virtual machine with postfix syntax, on top of a successor of which now still exists poplog (a multilanguage system that supports pop-11, prolog, common lisp and ml)
14:19:52 <futhin> *Fare: What do you think of high-level strongly-typed variants of forth, such as POP-11, HP RPL, Postscript?
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14:20:00 <chipChuck> Not that I recall
14:20:01 <futhin> (two questions similar to each other..)
14:20:35 <chipChuck> Typing is a crutch for poor programmers
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14:20:52 <chipChuck> It's an obstacle for good ones
14:21:21 <MrReach> heh, well said
14:21:34 <chipChuck> Strong typing merely creates errors so that they can be detected
14:22:13 <chipChuck> I have no objections to forth-like languages, or any languages
14:22:15 --- join: Howerd (Howerd@p08s04a02.client.global.net.uk) joined #forth
14:22:20 <chipChuck> Just don't make me use them
14:22:25 <chipChuck> over
14:23:02 <futhin>  <kc5tja> In your ColorForth environment, you mention on your webpage that code is recompiled on the fly, as needed.  Does this happen "in place" and retroactively?  Consider your RDY word in your IDE driver example code.  If we were to change it somehow, and have it recompiled, will that retroactively affect other words which utilize it?  Thanks.
14:23:18 --- mode: MrReach set -o MrReach
14:24:02 <chipChuck> No. Words must be defined before they're used
14:24:39 <chipChuck> Original Forth, circe 1968, did provide retroactive redefinition
14:25:01 <chipChuck> That means reinterpreting text at execution time. Far too expensive
14:25:34 <chipChuck> But you can always recompile the application whenever you change a definition is uses
14:25:51 <chipChuck> Compile time is really zero
14:25:52 <chipChuck> over
14:25:55 <futhin> <i440r> "words must be defined before they are used" do you discourage the use of defered words ?
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14:26:09 <chipChuck> Yes
14:26:24 <chipChuck> But there are some situations when you can't avoid them
14:26:38 <chipChuck> over
14:27:16 <futhin> sorry
14:27:18 <futhin> <jim> Chuck: (about catch/throw)... You don't think that in large systems, it would be nice for higher-level routines to have the option to handle lower-level exceptional conditions?
14:27:30 * futhin is handling this stuff slowly heh
14:27:36 <chipChuck> colorForth has several deferred words in the kernel. That's a flaw in the kernel design
14:28:04 <chipChuck> That's a hard one
14:28:17 <chipChuck> There shouldn't be errors
14:28:36 <chipChuck> But if a server fails to respond, something must be done
14:28:48 <chipChuck> Must the application anticipate all such problems
14:28:59 <chipChuck> Or can the system somehow cope
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14:29:42 <chipChuck> What I do is to mix the low and high-level code into an integrated whole
14:29:43 --- join: Scraggles (~scraggly@p08.3c04.pm.dimcom.net) joined #forth
14:29:59 <chipChuck> Modify the low-level code as necessary for the application
14:30:23 <chipChuck> The notion of levels of code, as in communication protocols, is wrong
14:30:42 <chipChuck> There needn't be so much code to make it necessary
14:30:44 <chipChuck> over
14:30:52 --- part: Scraggles left #forth
14:30:55 <futhin>  <kc5tja> Are there purely technological reasons why you dislike CATCH/THROW, versus philosophical reasons?
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14:31:40 <chipChuck> No. It's a neat solution for the perceived problem
14:32:04 <chipChuck> But when you mess with the return stack, you can create problems
14:32:22 <chipChuck> Robust, reliable code is simple
14:32:22 <chipChuck> over
14:32:43 <futhin> *GilbertBSD: what axioms inspired the early design of forth?
14:33:29 <chipChuck> The data stack came from the Burroughs 5500
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14:33:55 <chipChuck> Once I learned to use the stack, everything else followed
14:34:11 <chipChuck> The stack provides name-less temporary storage
14:34:30 <chipChuck> When you have to invent names, imagination fails
14:34:48 <chipChuck> Hence the endless hyphenated words of C
14:35:16 <chipChuck> Likewise in my chip design, most signals are unnamed
14:35:35 <chipChuck> Contrary to VHDL and the like that require them
14:35:51 <chipChuck> over
14:36:12 <futhin> <onetom> Q: what is ur name convention for structure members/field? whats up w nested structures?
14:36:40 <chipChuck> I don't do it that way
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14:37:16 <chipChuck> Forth, Inc had data-base structures
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14:37:42 <chipChuck> The higher level names set default values
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14:38:00 <chipChuck> That is, a file name set the current file
14:38:08 <chipChuck> A record number set the current record
14:38:27 <chipChuck> A field name accesses the current record in the current file
14:38:42 <chipChuck> At no time did you need to concatenate the names
14:38:53 <chipChuck> Though you needed to keep them distinct
14:39:02 <thefox> I would add that as part of the MachineForth training I would cover the concept of using the auto-incrementing instructions as much as possible in such code.
14:39:03 <chipChuck> over
14:39:32 <futhin> <onetom> how do u avoid name clashes between fieldnames in different structures?
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14:39:59 <chipChuck> We were designing the database
14:40:16 <chipChuck> So the NAME field was in the same position in all files
14:40:32 <chipChuck> If that's not possible, you need distinct names
14:40:53 <chipChuck> But only in applications that must be resident simultaneously
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14:41:06 <chipChuck> That is, those that use multiple files
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14:41:32 <chipChuck> When you recompile applications as needed, this is pretty much avoided
14:41:34 <chipChuck> over
14:41:50 <futhin>  *futhin: "Now that you've come up with colorforth and experimented with new ways to code forth, have you discovered any useful things that can be applied to machineForth for a better machineForth?"
14:42:40 <thefox> colorforth is a clearer description of machineforth for one thing.
14:42:53 <chipChuck> New ideas always appear
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14:43:20 <chipChuck> But colorForth makes it easy to do work arounds
14:43:41 <chipChuck> For example, IF is a perennial problem
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14:43:50 <chipChuck> Should it pop the stack?
14:44:07 <chipChuck> Maybe yes, maybe no
14:44:30 <chipChuck> And that's a hard change to mask
14:44:54 <chipChuck> But, it's simpler to decode instructions if it doesn't
14:45:03 <chipChuck> So that's how it is so far
14:45:10 <chipChuck> over
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14:46:13 <futhin>  <i440r> IF and DUP-IF ???
14:46:22 <futhin> (sorry i don't know if this question is in context...)
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14:46:44 <futhin> um should i go to next question?
14:46:53 <chipChuck> Wait
14:46:57 <futhin> ok
14:47:16 <chipChuck> Having multiple words could help
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14:47:31 <chipChuck> But it makes the language more complex, harder to learn
14:47:54 <chipChuck> And doesn't address the underlying hardware issue
14:48:22 <chipChuck> over. I could say more
14:48:51 <futhin> <i440r> do you think portability is important - or does forths ease/speed of development negate the need for it
14:49:18 <chipChuck> Portability is not important
14:49:24 <chipChuck> Portability is not possible
14:49:42 <chipChuck> Real applications are closely coupled to hardware
14:49:52 <I440r> !
14:49:59 <chipChuck> Change the platform and all the code changes
14:50:00 <I440r> i was hoping you would say that :P
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14:50:23 <chipChuck> If it didn't, you wouldn't have changed the platform
14:50:51 <chipChuck> To abstract the problem from the hardware requires massive software like Windows
14:51:16 <chipChuck> That's a permanent tax on all applications to save some one-time programming
14:51:39 <chipChuck> Programmers should object to job-elimination concepts
14:52:04 <chipChuck> Of course, jobs are actually multiplied to deal with the hyper-complex abstraction
14:52:21 <chipChuck> And modern hardware has computers in the displays and disks
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14:52:40 <chipChuck> They've already made many interfaces protable
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14:53:04 <chipChuck> How many layers of portability are needed?
14:53:05 <chipChuck> over
14:53:10 <futhin>  <jim> ChipChuck: In another question, it was mentioned you are experimenting or otherwise dealing with something called "sourceless programming"... could you elaborate a bit?
14:53:16 <tcn> Dealing with Windows is a lousy job, no matter what it pays :)
14:53:36 <chipChuck> I spent several years writing sourceless code
14:53:51 <chipChuck> This was my first version of OKAD, for chip design
14:54:24 <chipChuck> By this I mean, editing the hex machine code into memory and saving to disk
14:55:04 <chipChuck> If, as I expected, code could be reused the actual machine code would be managable
14:55:28 <chipChuck> But it grew without limit, eventually becoming unmanagable
14:55:53 <chipChuck> And there was another gotcha
14:56:30 <chipChuck> I'd have numbers embedded in the code, without any documentation as to how they were computer
14:57:00 <chipChuck> colorForth embeds expressions and compiles the result as a literal
14:57:27 <chipChuck> But the trace of what that number means, remains
14:57:28 <chipChuck> over
14:57:30 <futhin> <tcn> Do you have romantic notions of fixing the internet and everything, bringing simplicity to the masses? What would it be like?
14:57:44 <chipChuck> Of course
14:58:12 <chipChuck> I see a Forth Markup Language supplementing HTML
14:58:32 <chipChuck> That defines a subnet of users that can read it
14:59:00 <chipChuck> FML is like colorForth - words with tags
14:59:02 <thefox> iTV in colorforth
14:59:27 <chipChuck> More compact, more efficient, more flexible
14:59:37 <tcn> what about communication protocols (IP, TCP, etc..)?
14:59:38 <chipChuck> Eliminates the need for Java
15:00:02 <chipChuck> TCP/IP can't be changed
15:00:11 <chipChuck> But it can be lived with
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15:00:40 <chipChuck> over
15:01:06 <futhin> *goshawk`: Do you see your ideas gaining more acceptance and being more fully exploited in your lifetime? If not, what is stopping that from becoming a reality?
15:01:14 <futhin> also
15:01:16 <futhin> question for jeff
15:01:17 <futhin> *goshawk`: Do you see your ideas gaining more acceptance and being more fully exploited in your lifetime? If not, what is stopping that from becoming a reality?
15:01:18 <futhin> oops
15:01:24 <futhin> <jim> Jeff: MachineForth -training-? please elaborate?
15:01:59 <thefox> my ideas are not good enough yet?
15:02:13 <chipChuck> Ideas are memes. They evolve unpredictably
15:02:45 <chipChuck> Memes insinuate themselves untraceably
15:02:49 <futhin> thefox:  sorry, question was <jim> Jeff: MachineForth -training-? please elaborate?
15:03:16 <chipChuck> My ideas have influence, probably as much as they deserve
15:03:44 <chipChuck> Those that achieve prominance are the result of fads
15:04:02 <thefox> ah, I trained new programmers at iTV in MachineForth.  I got pretty good at it.  Not all the programmers were interested, some were hired to write ANS only and were experts in the way they did it.
15:04:19 <chipChuck> Consider the family of languages Fortran, Algol, PLI, Pascal, C
15:04:58 <chipChuck> They're all the same. The currently popular one is random choice
15:05:02 <thefox> I will make a complete series of videos on machineforth at my website.  I did get a start at it.  over
15:05:25 <chipChuck> No. I don't expect to become accepted
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15:05:47 <chipChuck> I'll just keep exploring
15:05:49 <chipChuck> over
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15:05:59 <futhin> <rob_ert> Do you think forth should be used as a "general purpose language", for everyday software, or does it belong among embedded devices and other specialised systems?
15:06:23 --- part: M-bitter left #forth
15:06:50 <chipChuck> Forth is the best language for all purposes
15:07:04 <chipChuck> Because it mimics natural language
15:07:15 <futhin> :)
15:07:20 <chipChuck> Defining new words in terms of old ones
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15:07:40 <chipChuck> Hiding information on the stacks
15:08:04 <chipChuck> Makes it easy for normal humans to customize their computer
15:08:21 <chipChuck> Will it happen?
15:08:42 <chipChuck> Give me $100M and I'll compete with Gates
15:08:49 <chipChuck> over
15:08:51 <I440r> if i had it i would :)
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15:09:13 <futhin> <rob_ert>  Do you think forth should be used as a "general purpose language", for everyday software, or does it belong among embedded devices and other specialised systems?
15:09:19 <futhin> oops
15:09:24 <futhin> i suck at cut'n'pasting
15:09:30 <futhin> *goshawk`: Do you believe the open source "movement" had any negative impacts on the acceptance and/or practice of Forth?
15:10:03 * chipChuck thinking
15:10:33 <chipChuck> Forth was open source before open source became popular
15:11:12 <chipChuck> I don't see a negative impact
15:11:27 <I440r> any posative impact?
15:11:39 <chipChuck> I see a decrease in the writing of software
15:11:59 <chipChuck> And an increase in attention paid to integrating software
15:12:13 <tcn> bad news..
15:12:36 <chipChuck> DOD boasts about how much code can be ported from the F22 to the F35
15:12:53 <chipChuck> Maybe 50% of 6M
15:13:14 <chipChuck> So nobody writes from scratch
15:13:22 <chipChuck> Not even Linux drivers
15:13:48 <chipChuck> Forth is the last bastion of DIY
15:14:08 <chipChuck> Open source hasn't hurt or helped that
15:14:09 <chipChuck> over
15:14:11 <futhin> <jim> Chuck: Gates is presently competing with Stallman and Torvalds... if you were at that level, is it Gates that you would be competing with? Do you regret that forth came out into open source?
15:14:53 <chipChuck> I wouldn't compete on a PC platform
15:15:19 <chipChuck> With the 25x, it's a whole new ballgame
15:15:47 <chipChuck> No, I think Forth source is a goldmine
15:16:02 <chipChuck> Ideas should not be secret
15:16:08 <chipChuck> Should not be patentable
15:16:36 <chipChuck> The more people engaged, the better the result
15:16:48 <chipChuck> over
15:16:59 <futhin> <josephMoore> how do you feel about automated production of software (computer driven) and its possible role in replacing future human development thereby replacing the need for language based development
15:17:35 <chipChuck> Computers that program themselves have been a dream for decades
15:17:52 <chipChuck> It hasn't happened yet. Not even a little
15:18:23 <chipChuck> Even if they do, it takes a human to have the insight to change the rules
15:18:55 <chipChuck> Without true AI, I see no prospect
15:19:22 <chipChuck> And even with AI, there has to be a language to express the problem and solution
15:19:43 <chipChuck> Not in my lifetime
15:19:44 <chipChuck> over
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15:20:10 <futhin> Mr. Moore, i appreciate all this..  this interview seems to be able to go on for 2 more hours, easily..
15:20:18 <futhin> i'm not quite sure what your time frame is..
15:20:23 <chipChuck> I'm ok
15:20:26 <futhin> also, if you want to take any breaks, let me know..
15:20:35 * chipChuck getting a coke
15:20:42 <futhin> ok, great ..  next question i guess
15:20:52 <futhin> <mlg> ChipChuck - you mentioned Forth Markup Language (FML). My practice shows that Forth does not make a good language for batch programming (unless you manage to add an interactive window). What sort of interactivity (if any) do you propose for FML?
15:21:42 --- part: josephMoore left #forth
15:21:58 * chipChuck back
15:22:30 <I440r> wb
15:22:39 <futhin> heh, i asked the question..  we're all patient :)
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15:23:02 <chipChuck> FML, like colorForth, would let the used type (steer) while processing in the background
15:23:45 <chipChuck> Batch programming is an obsolete concept?
15:24:11 <chipChuck> Computers are so fast, anything should happen instantly
15:24:20 <chipChuck> But, searching the web
15:25:25 <chipChuck> Don't know. Wait and see. But always something can be done
15:25:28 <chipChuck> over
15:26:18 <futhin> <nothing> Mister Moore: What are your further plans for an integrated forth hardware solution? Would you be interested, money being no concern, to realize such plans?
15:26:38 <chipChuck> Absolutely
15:26:56 <chipChuck> Forth on a Forthchip is an unbeatable combination
15:27:20 <chipChuck> Trouble is, computers are so fast already that C is viable
15:27:21 <thefox> twice the fun
15:27:50 <chipChuck> Yet critics claim problems that cannot be addressed
15:28:03 <chipChuck> Consider weather forcasting
15:28:21 <chipChuck> At some point, chaos limits predictions
15:28:39 <chipChuck> Faster supercomputers are unhelpful
15:29:47 <chipChuck> Perhaps UWB is fertile ground for elaborate processing
15:29:50 <chipChuck> over
15:30:03 <futhin> <joseph> have you ever programmed self mutatable or self replicating system components or even user level applications using forth
15:30:11 <futhin> <joseph> and if so does it offer any advantage over using assembly 
15:30:48 <chipChuck> OKAD, in sourceless code, was self-modifying
15:30:51 --- quit: tcn ("going to play some fiddle!")
15:31:42 <chipChuck> I'd like to optimize the c18 computer, at a layout level
15:32:01 <chipChuck> That would require mutating code
15:32:19 <chipChuck> colorForth is intended to facilitate that
15:32:55 <chipChuck> For example, storing (and displaying) variables in source code means they can easily be changed
15:33:07 --- quit: pavlovskii (Killed (NickServ (Nickname Enforcement)))
15:33:19 <chipChuck> But no, I've not done anything significant
15:33:20 <chipChuck> over
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15:33:37 <futhin> steering it back to FML..
15:33:39 <futhin> <geakazoid> Will FML have programmable tag sets like XML?
15:33:46 <futhin> <geakazoid> What work has been done on FML? Is it a project that is being programmed?
15:34:06 <chipChuck> Absolutely. Programmable tags
15:34:10 <futhin> *tcn* side note: you could write in FML and translate to HTML until everyone's using FML
15:34:28 <chipChuck> As in Forth, tags defined in terms of previously defined tags
15:34:43 <chipChuck> Something I sorely miss in HTML
15:34:58 <chipChuck> FML is vaporware, from my perspective
15:35:27 <chipChuck> What it needs is several people who use it to communicate and thereby evolve it
15:35:39 <chipChuck> over
15:36:00 <chipChuck> One more comment
15:36:35 <futhin> sorry? you mean one more question?
15:36:35 <chipChuck> An FML tag has a distinct color. It is a word that is executed by the editor
15:36:41 <futhin> er, nevermind
15:37:07 <futhin> <John_Peters> Where can we participate in or see some FML activity?
15:37:09 <chipChuck> And ignored by the compiler?
15:37:52 <chipChuck> So it takes advantage of the run/compile/edit distinction
15:38:22 <chipChuck> FML will be on the internet when its time comes. Nothing yet
15:38:26 <chipChuck> over
15:38:37 <futhin> <kc5tja> FML has been mentioned numerous times in this discussion, but yet, no examples of what it'd look like or its structure has been given.  Is this iTV proprietary information?  If not, can an example be posted?  The idea of Forth as a markup language intrigues me much.  Thanks.
15:39:31 <chipChuck> iTv may have precursed the idea, but not really
15:39:56 <chipChuck> When I get TCP and PPP coded, I'll work on a browser
15:40:18 <chipChuck> That browser will translate HTML into FML
15:40:43 <chipChuck> colorForth will interpret the FML to display pages
15:41:18 <chipChuck> When FML is adequate, it can be posted directly and avoid translation
15:41:58 <chipChuck> For example, the purple word  P  could mean the HTML tag <p>
15:42:17 <chipChuck> And so forth
15:42:26 <chipChuck> Simple translation
15:42:38 <chipChuck> Perhaps 2x compression from Huffman coding
15:43:00 <chipChuck> And elimination of those interminable <s and >s
15:43:10 <chipChuck> And the resulting spelling errors
15:43:11 <chipChuck> over
15:43:28 <futhin> *Howerd* Chuck: Is there any difference between FML and a remotely executed Forth program?
15:43:57 * chipChuck thinking
15:44:25 <chipChuck> FML would be a restricted subset for security
15:44:50 <chipChuck> But it's not remotely executed
15:45:03 <chipChuck> You've downloaded the source and executed it locally
15:45:47 <chipChuck> One advantage of a colorForth-enabled web would be ease of sharing code
15:45:52 <futhin> *Howerd* Chuck: perhaps I'm thinking of F-ASP :)
15:45:57 <thefox> It could be the basis for a parallelism on the net.
15:46:00 <I440r> clitnt side instead of server side ? (eek)!
15:46:46 <chipChuck> Sorry, don't recognize F-ASP, so I missed the joke
15:46:57 <chipChuck> over
15:47:12 <futhin> <geakazoid> What work has been done on FML? Is it a project that is being programmed?
15:47:21 <futhin> <geakazoid> I am interested in a programmable tag set that would allow virtual interaction from the user's perspective, would FML have that interactive ability that would replace CGI scripting?
15:47:31 <futhin> i think we'll get off the FML subject after these...
15:47:36 <futhin> got many more questions :)
15:47:36 <chipChuck> I started it with the first colorForth
15:47:52 <chipChuck> Then abandoned it to work on OKAD II
15:48:10 --- join: AlonzoTG (alangrimes@66-44-58-244.s244.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com) joined #forth
15:48:15 <chipChuck> It's only interesting with the web
15:48:16 <chipChuck> over
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15:49:03 <futhin> <GilbertBSD> are there concepts in other programming languages that you admire or is forth the one true language?
15:49:24 <futhin>  <fare> are you familiar with high-level functional programming languages such as lisp, ml, haskell, pop-11, clean ? with logic programming languages such as prolog, mercury, oz?
15:49:32 <futhin> (2 similar questions i think..)
15:49:37 <chipChuck> Yes, FML should allow virtual interaction
15:50:19 <chipChuck> Yes, I'm familiar with LISP, Prolog. Not the others
15:50:35 <chipChuck> When I was developing Forth, I knew all languages
15:50:50 <chipChuck> With Forth, I've neglected them
15:51:09 <chipChuck> However, show me an idea (like Prolog) and I'll implement it in Forth
15:51:42 <chipChuck> But don't suggest processing of text. That's an exhausted field
15:52:00 <chipChuck> LISP was one of the inspiration for Forth
15:52:19 <chipChuck> The notion that you could compute something without storing anything
15:52:48 <chipChuck> I don't see new ideas in the new languages
15:52:51 <chipChuck> over
15:53:34 <futhin> <kc5tja> Your hardware and software ventures are decidedly "out of the box".  Have they been profitable enough to live comfortably with?  (I guess, in other words, how big is the market?)
15:54:05 <chipChuck> They've not been profitable
15:54:11 <chipChuck> But they've met expenses
15:54:54 <chipChuck> iTv was the best organized attempt at profitability
15:55:16 <chipChuck> At one time, I was worth $20M (paper)
15:55:35 --- join: gbvb (~user@h00104b020ddb.ne.client2.attbi.com) joined #forth
15:55:37 <chipChuck> But it didn't work out
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15:55:43 --- mode: ChanServ set +o TheBlueWizard
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15:55:51 <TheBlueWizard> hiya all
15:56:02 * TheBlueWizard blinks in surprise at the full house here!
15:56:07 <futhin> shh thebluewizard
15:56:08 <chipChuck> I wouldn't recommend me as a role model
15:56:09 <chipChuck> over
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15:56:23 <futhin> <onetom> Q: if text processing is so exhausted could u tell us some pointers to some -say- text replacement library understanding regexp-s implemented in forth?
15:57:21 <chipChuck> don't understand
15:57:33 <futhin> oks orry
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15:57:59 <futhin> *water* Mr. Moore: have you looked at the functional language Joy that is purely functional but works like a Forth, using word substitution and list-based processing? what do you think joy could incorporate from forth or vice versa?
15:58:22 <chipChuck> I glanced at Joy
15:58:56 <chipChuck> Couldn't really comment
15:59:15 <chipChuck> Many macro languages substitute text and interpret it
15:59:34 <chipChuck> That isn't the way Forth macros work
15:59:50 <chipChuck> They actually do the action, rather than postpone it
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16:00:14 <futhin>  *water* what about the fact that it works nice and algebraically?
16:00:25 <chipChuck> I see no advantage to manipulating the text instead of getting on with the job
16:00:44 <chipChuck> By algebraically, you mean infix?
16:00:48 <futhin> yes i think so
16:00:58 <chipChuck> That just means they did it the hard way
16:01:16 <futhin> er
16:01:17 <chipChuck> Forth can, and has, implemented infix. Many times
16:01:24 <chipChuck> It's a dead end
16:01:34 <futhin> algebraically wasn't meant as infix..
16:01:43 <futhin> <water> joy has lists as code closures and can do things with the stack based on them
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16:02:02 <chipChuck> Ok. Out of my depth
16:02:15 <chipChuck> over
16:02:28 <futhin> <i440r> what forths other than your own have you used?
16:02:48 <chipChuck> There was one
16:03:01 <chipChuck> What preceeded Win32?
16:03:04 <I440r> fpc
16:03:10 <chipChuck> Right
16:03:17 <I440r> tom zimmer - isforth is loosly based on fpc
16:03:20 <I440r> loosly
16:03:26 <chipChuck> It was very frustrating. I kept wanting to change things
16:03:36 <chipChuck> But I hadn't a Forth for the PC
16:03:48 <chipChuck> Now, with colorForth, I feel no urge
16:03:49 <futhin> chipChuck:  i440r would like you to check out his forth at http://isforth.clss.net  ;)
16:03:58 <I440r> lol
16:04:25 <chipChuck> Noted
16:04:36 <chipChuck> over
16:04:42 <futhin> ok, a side question
16:05:22 <futhin> would you consider being a semi regular visitor to the channel, on an informal basis? :)
16:05:29 <futhin> or doing this event in the future?
16:05:37 <futhin> people are wondering :)
16:06:12 <futhin> informal..  unannounced and unplanned
16:06:14 <chipChuck> Sure. Could do it again. Won't you run out of questions?
16:06:24 <futhin> not running out of questions at the moment
16:06:39 <I440r> never :)
16:07:05 <chipChuck> I'd like more opinions from you-all
16:07:25 <I440r> then maybe we should set mode -m on the channel ?
16:07:48 <I440r> a non chaotic (i hope) free for all ?
16:07:51 <futhin> i have quite a handful of questions still to be asked, but that could be dealt with another time..
16:08:23 <futhin> up to you if you want to continue this way for a bit more?
16:08:51 <chipChuck> For a little while. The sun's coming onto my screen
16:08:58 <futhin> i was hoping to finish things up with a -m and everybody being able to talk..
16:09:30 <chipChuck> go
16:09:32 <futhin> goshawk`: what inspired you to focus on hardware, and what background did you have up until that point that allowed him to make that move?
16:09:51 <chipChuck> I considered software a solved problem
16:10:07 <chipChuck> All my trouble with read-time systems were with the hardware
16:10:22 <chipChuck> No background. Just determination
16:10:24 <chipChuck> over
16:10:30 <futhin> <kc5tja> When designing the first x21 processor (i21??), by what process did you arrive at the initial 27 opcodes for the machine?  Software simulations and statistical profiling?
16:10:54 <chipChuck> Seat of pants
16:11:09 <chipChuck> Paring down the Forth primitives till I had a managable set
16:11:32 <chipChuck> My guesses corresponded well with others profiling
16:11:33 <chipChuck> over
16:11:50 <futhin> <geakazoid> What is the status of Chuck & Jeff's work on parrallel processing?
16:12:05 <chipChuck> The 25x is unfunded
16:12:24 <chipChuck> I could fund a prototype, but without funding, where's the market
16:12:36 <chipChuck> over
16:13:25 <futhin> <wtanksley> colorForth interests me greatly -- one thing which occurs to me about it is that because you change the editor rather than the language when you add new syntax, it would be reasonable to extend the editor _greatly_ when you add new syntax, for example by creating a table widget to handle a state machine definition (q.v. Noble's FSM definition words). Would you consider that a proper use?
16:14:05 <chipChuck> Yes
16:14:30 <chipChuck> The ability to change the tag table leads to many interesting applications
16:14:44 <chipChuck> I only hope that 16 tags is enough
16:14:56 --- quit: ChrisJ (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:15:00 <chipChuck> over
16:15:12 <futhin>  *mlg* chipchuck - as to parallel processing, does something already work? What approach do you use to distribute computation across processes?
16:15:47 <chipChuck> I would distribute functionally
16:16:07 <chipChuck> For example, one processor would accept seial input
16:16:16 <chipChuck> Another would process PPP
16:16:26 <chipChuck> Another would process IP
16:16:36 <chipChuck> Another would process TCP
16:16:45 <chipChuck> Someone would eventually do the application
16:16:47 <chipChuck> over
16:17:19 <futhin>  *BigBoyToddy* The 25x is a great design from what I can tell, if it could be funded via selling kits, marketing it to end users, what would the numbers be to get it into production?
16:17:49 --- join: phusnikn (phusnikn@Star.Wars.Episode.II.DVD.SCREENER.logit.ws) joined #forth
16:17:53 <chipChuck> VCs rightly demand a marketing plan
16:18:06 --- part: phusnikn left #forth
16:18:21 <chipChuck> My last guess was $200K for 2 prototype runs over 9 months
16:18:36 <chipChuck> Then $100K for production
16:19:02 <chipChuck> Add to that, kit design and production, programming, documentation\
16:19:22 <chipChuck> Marketing, support. It's not cheap
16:19:39 <chipChuck> Requires a commitment no one has made
16:19:46 <chipChuck> over
16:20:13 <futhin> you said you wanted opinions..  have any questions to ask us? :)
16:20:29 <chipChuck> What's the future of Forth?
16:20:37 <futhin> hm
16:20:43 <futhin> maybe we should come back to that later heh
16:20:45 <futhin> sorry
16:20:50 <futhin> when everyone is -m 
16:21:13 <futhin>  <alephnull> "Thanks, I'll make the Ethernet/UDP code available at next website update." (--Chuck Moore, from the ColorForth mailing list on Apr. 14) Q: Could you briefly describe how the Ethernet/UDP code is coming along? 
16:21:20 <chipChuck> How many of you are using Forth?
16:21:21 <futhin> we're running out of questions now
16:21:36 * I440r uses forth
16:21:39 <futhin> so i think the closing will be soon..
16:21:49 <futhin> ok
16:21:49 <chipChuck> How can we tabulate opinions?
16:21:51 <I440r> well. im writing one for linux
16:22:02 <futhin> one last question
16:22:05 <futhin> and then we'll go to
16:22:10 * chipChuck sees sun coming round
16:22:28 <futhin> the "what's the future of forth?" question
16:22:38 <futhin> <shapr> ChipChuck - do you have any suggestions for new directions to explore in computing?
16:23:13 * futhin apologizes to all profusely if he is handling this poorly..
16:23:22 <chipChuck> Yes, but that's a long answer
16:23:30 <chipChuck> You're doing great
16:24:09 --- join: hurst (~gnhurst@ip68-10-70-29.hr.hr.cox.net) joined #forth
16:24:10 <chipChuck> I'm exploring parallel computing
16:24:37 <chipChuck> With very small. very fast computers
16:24:58 <chipChuck> That's 64 word of ROM, 128 words of RAM, 2400 Mips
16:25:05 --- quit: wtanksley (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
16:25:14 <chipChuck> They can't do much, but can do it very fast
16:25:21 <I440r> are you giving each processor specific types of task or does the next instruction/task go to the first available processor ?
16:25:35 <chipChuck> With this, I hope to explore some hard problems
16:25:43 <chipChuck> More next time
16:26:27 <chipChuck> Processor tasks are programmer assigned
16:26:39 <chipChuck> Partly dependent on unique processor capabilities
16:27:00 --- quit: WFR ()
16:27:03 <chipChuck> There are 25 independent instruction streams
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16:27:28 <chipChuck> 63,000 Mips total, programmable
16:27:35 <I440r> wow
16:27:36 <chipChuck> Nice programming problem
16:27:48 <I440r> when you have that on a pc based machine ill be a beta tester for you :)
16:27:49 <chipChuck> 500 mW
16:28:09 <chipChuck> I can simulate a few of them
16:28:10 <chipChuck> over
16:28:28 <futhin> i've got 5 to 10 more questions..  all of them good
16:28:37 <futhin> it's ok to continue?
16:28:56 <chipChuck> It's getting too bright
16:29:07 <chipChuck> Let's schedule a repeat
16:29:17 <chipChuck> Guess that's reprise
16:29:17 <futhin> ok then
16:29:37 <futhin> so when are you thinking of repeating this event?
16:30:15 * chipChuck thinking
16:30:42 <chipChuck> My wife says the 18th is good
16:31:02 <futhin> okay then
16:31:25 <futhin> <MrReach> may I suggest that chipChuck buy some blinds for his window?
16:31:33 <chipChuck> Enjoyed talking to you
16:31:42 <futhin> yes, let's continue next time
16:31:48 <futhin> and we'll make it more open-forum
16:31:52 <futhin> and you can ask us
16:31:56 <futhin> questions
16:32:11 --- quit: chipChuck ("ok to all")
16:32:21 --- mode: futhin set -m
16:32:23 <futhin> lol
16:32:26 <rob_ert> :)
16:32:26 <onetom> lol
16:32:30 <futhin> left a little fast
16:32:41 <goshawk`> well, i would have liked to at least thank him for his patience here
16:32:44 <GilbertBSD> he was being watched.
16:32:50 <onetom> nah, guyz, how did u like it?
16:32:51 <rob_ert> It's black outside here...he should move to a country where it's night this time of the day
16:32:53 <kc5tja> Well, when you start poking fun at his window or his blinds, he probably got a tiny tad bit annoyed.  :)
16:33:00 <rob_ert> It was groovy, onetom ;)
16:33:02 <futhin> kc5tja: yeah heheh
16:33:17 <MrReach> he was the one complaining
16:33:17 <rob_ert> MrReach: You scared him away!
16:33:20 <rob_ert> ;D
16:33:20 <juu> yes, he shoudl irc at night time, like me 3 am, so sunlight doenstbother.. for 10 hours at least :)
16:33:21 <futhin> well if the sun was shining on his monitor
16:33:22 --- part: jeffp left #forth
16:33:23 <onetom> hey, how many of u r still really here? hands up!
16:33:23 <I440r> i got a question - can i have a job ?
16:33:25 <I440r> :)
16:33:31 * shapr is barely awake
16:33:32 <futhin> if the sun was shining on the monitor, it would be pretty hard to see
16:33:40 <futhin> especially since he is legally blind as i heard
16:33:45 <MrReach> the sun is probably either directly in his eyes or right on his screen, making it impossible to read
16:33:54 <Howerd> Its 00:24 here in UK... must get some sleep...
16:33:57 * juu 's leg is up
16:34:06 <MrReach> pleasant dreams, Howerd
16:34:06 <shapr> I want some 25x chips on a PCI board
16:34:13 <mlg> You live still in Saturday, do you?
16:34:13 <Howerd> Ta...
16:34:13 <futhin> well guys, i guess it'll be repeated on the 18th..  2 weeks from now
16:34:17 <MrReach> that would be cool
16:34:19 <I440r> i think that went BRILLIANTLY myself :)
16:34:20 * kc5tja wouldn't mind having 25 25x chips on a PCI card.. :)
16:34:23 --- part: emu left #forth
16:34:25 <GilbertBSD> futhin:  what time?
16:34:31 <Howerd> Yes. V good
16:34:32 <futhin> probably same
16:34:33 <MrReach> yes, that was fun
16:34:33 <shapr> I'd be happy with even one 25x chip
16:34:33 <TheBlueWizard> futhin: cool...and good job moderating!
16:34:36 <GilbertBSD> and what are the sun/up sun/down conditions?
16:34:39 <futhin> i'll email chuck
16:34:39 <juu> heheh, what was the same time ? :)
16:34:43 <John_Peters> That is when the SV Fig meeting is
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16:35:00 <futhin> juu:  2pm pacific time maybe
16:35:01 <rob_ert> I'd like to ask the (pretty old) people in here about what they think of forth's popularity... Nobody knows of chuck moore outsode #forth, and most people puke at forth... How should we get people to use forth? :-)
16:35:10 --- quit: geqo ("JE SUIS UNE HALLUCINATION! - http://geqo.wox.org/genk/")
16:35:16 <rob_ert> Chuck's opinion is that forth is very general purpose...
16:35:20 <futhin> thanks all for your patient
16:35:24 <futhin> thanks all for your patience
16:35:24 <rob_ert> So, why isn't it very used?
16:35:29 <onetom> GilbertBSD: lollllll
16:35:30 <futhin> next time, i hope it'll go even better
16:35:32 <jim> thefox: nice to have you join us
16:35:33 <Howerd> You can't. I've tried. people either love Forth or hate it...
16:35:35 <futhin> it'll be more open forum
16:35:39 <rob_ert> Hehe
16:35:41 <GilbertBSD> futhin:  great event.
16:35:44 <BigBoyToddy> would someone post on a web page the entire transcript so others can read it?
16:35:52 <GilbertBSD> BigBoyToddy:  its done
16:35:53 <rob_ert> Hm
16:35:54 <GilbertBSD> clog has it.
16:35:56 <antirez> rob_ert: this seems like the lisp problem
16:35:58 <Fare> thefox: what does aikido teaches you about forth, and conversely?
16:36:00 <MrReach> BigBoyToddy this is logged to webpage already
16:36:09 <rob_ert> I will surely upload this log to my page =)
16:36:09 <MrReach> lemme get the url
16:36:18 <BigBoyToddy> excellent!
16:36:18 <TheBlueWizard> BigBoyToddy: type /whois on clog for info
16:36:18 <kc5tja> Fare: As an aikidoka myself, I can say this much: patience.  :D
16:36:25 <I440r> mrreach thefox has agreed to put the logs on his site too
16:36:25 <futhin> bigboytoddy: yes.  the log will be given to jeff fox, and hopefully he'll put it up on ultratechnology.com
16:36:37 <I440r> im going to extract all the cruft from the logs first tho
16:36:38 --- quit: WFR ()
16:36:45 <BigBoyToddy> I would leave it just as it is.
16:36:52 <BigBoyToddy> That way folks know who came and went when.
16:37:03 <rob_ert> Anyone knows WFR?
16:37:03 <jim> Howerd: Perlmutter, by any chance?
16:37:05 <onetom> rob_ert: prove the world that forth is so general! code! code! & code! as lenin would say :)
16:37:07 <rob_ert> He CTCP flooded me....
16:37:10 <I440r> it will be left as it is but jeff fox has a site were it might be SEEN!!!
16:37:17 <rob_ert> onetom: Lenin didn't know forth :}
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16:37:19 <MrReach> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/ ... that is the index of logs
16:37:22 <goshawk`> I do wish that people non-essential to the discussion wouldn't chime in
16:37:23 <BigBoyToddy> WFR flooded you?
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16:37:30 <rob_ert> BigBoyToddy: Yeah...
16:37:40 <goshawk`> I think only the invited part(y/ies) and the moderator should speak in a closed-forum
16:37:41 <GilbertBSD> goshawk`:  it was moderated.
16:37:49 <jim> rob_ert: he did?? that was Bill Raggsdale, he headed the Forth Implementation Team
16:37:49 <antirez> http://www.paulgraham.com/popular.html <- this seems very interesting, about programming languages popularity
16:37:53 <MrReach> http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/forth/02.05.04 this is the log for today
16:37:57 <FredrikH> rob_ert: who flooded you?
16:37:57 <goshawk`> gilbert: there were quite a few people still making comments
16:38:18 <rob_ert> FredrikH: WFR
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16:38:26 <MrReach> erm ... that would be me ... sorry
16:38:38 <futhin> you flooded rob_ert?
16:38:38 <FredrikH> rob_ert: er, who is WFR?
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16:38:56 <herkamire> futhin: you did a great job with the interview.
16:39:03 <BigBoyToddy> here here, I agree
16:39:05 <shapr> futhin: yah, good job
16:39:07 <shapr> thanks